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PECo
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 5203
Location: Avon, CT
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 Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CTfirefighter wrote: | | if thats all you came away with then , you didnt read the whole article |
I did read the whole article. Like SeaDog1 mentioned, I used to be a lawyer, so I tend to read everything out of habit. The part I quoted was what I thought was relevant to this, ahem, discussion. What else do you think I should have mentioned?
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NorthEastFisherman
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| CTfirefighter wrote: | | if thats all you came away with then , you didnt read the whole article |
You want us to read a 30 page article on what we already said.... |
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SeaDog1
Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Posts: 2629
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| PECo wrote: | | CTfirefighter wrote: | http://www.wildtroutstreams.com/CatchRelease/catch_and_release_review_and_guidelines.pdf
and now the other side of the story... |
Nice report. But it says that cutting the line is the last resort, too:
| Quote: | Unhooking a Fish
• Have longnose pliers available to back the hook out.
• Remove the hook quickly, keeping the fish underwater.
• If the fish is deeply hooked, cut the line and release the fish as quickly as possible.
• Avoid using stainless steel hooks as they take longer to corrode if left in the fish. |
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Hi,
Ctfirefighter ..... Thank you for finding and posting that report -> Kudos to you Sir !
Oh! ... And I did read the whole report which was well written !
Well now counselor -> Since your so keen on wording being specific -> Where in the report does it say to cut the line as a "Last Resort" ?
GOTCAH  It doesn't say that anywhere in the report !
Our friendly lawyer here, likes to sling mud when it suites his obtuse perspective on certain subjects.
Watch -> Now he'll be ducking and weaving saying he didn't mean things the way he said it !
Either that or he'll come back at me -> Knowing full well that he hasn't a snowball chance in hell of beating me down. 
You know I live by one motto counselor -> "Never Give In ..... Never Back Down" !
Remember this I sent to you of my Polish ancestors that I'm decended from :
www.badassoftheweek.com/hussars.html
Now with that said -> I think our tight buttocks counselor should cease further continuence of this ......ahem, discussion .... and not incur additional embarrassment or egg on his face !
SeaDog1  |
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CTfirefighter
Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:13 am Post subject: |
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The scientific evidence is that fish mortality is more negatively affected by leaving hooks in fish than by removing them. This is reflected in the IFGA's Release Rules and Recommendations. They do not say, remove the hook or cut the line at the hook. They say (emphasis supplied):
you quoted this from the IGFA's webpage, which to me is a based on saltwater fish, not something as fragile as a trout.
the study i posted said the complete oppisite but i guess you wouldnt quote that if it dosent support your arguement..
i guess the bottom line to this whole debate is this, when i see a trout float by me i'll know that some of you from this site are fishing above me...
good day gentlemen |
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PECo
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 5203
Location: Avon, CT
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| CTfirefighter wrote: | The scientific evidence is that fish mortality is more negatively affected by leaving hooks in fish than by removing them. This is reflected in the IFGA's Release Rules and Recommendations. They do not say, remove the hook or cut the line at the hook. They say (emphasis supplied):
you quoted this from the IGFA's webpage, which to me is a based on saltwater fish, not something as fragile as a trout.
the study i posted said the complete oppisite but i guess you wouldnt quote that if it dosent support your arguement..
i guess the bottom line to this whole debate is this, when i see a trout float by me i'll know that some of you from this site are fishing above me...
good day gentlemen |
CTfirefighter
The IGFA has the same recommendation for both saltwater and freshwater fish. And I quoted the section of the report you posted that echoes the IGFA's recommendation. It says to "remove the hook quickly" and to "cut the line at the hook if the fish is deeply hooked". Would you please quote the section of the report that says "the complete opposite" of what I said? Were you referring to this?
| Quote: | While the increased mortality associated with deep hooking is understood, it is less clear as to whether it is better to cut the line of deeply hooked fish or try to remove the hook, potentially risking further injury and increased air exposure to the fish. Aalbers et al. (2004) examined the growth and survival of white seabass up to 90 days after catch and found that survival of fish released with hooks left in place was enhanced, as compared to fish with hooks removed, but that growth was reduced. When hooks were removed mortality was 65%, compared to 41% when hooks were left embedded. Of the fish in this study that were released with the hooks left in place, 39% had successfully shed the hooks by the end of the study, however, of the hooks that remained in place there was minimal degradation. These results are similar to those found by Mason and Hunt (1967), who examined the effect of hook removal on the survival of rainbow trout up to four months after release. Two-thirds of the fish released without hook removal survived, while only 11.5% of the fish which had hooks removed survived. Additionally, of the fish that survived with hooks left in place, more than half had shed the hooks by the end of the study. Schill (1996) found that cutting the line on deeply hooked rainbow trout reduced mortality from 58% to 36%, and 60%-74% of fish that were released with hooks left in place had managed to discard the hooks by the end of the study. It has recently been suggested that for species such as bass and walleye, it may be possible to reduce mortality
caused by deep hooking by removing the hook through the gills (Strange, 20034). However, to date there have not been any empirical studies which have demonstrated the effectiveness of this technique. Thus, despite the relative few studies which have examined the effect of deep hooking
on mortality, it appears as though, for some species, mortality can be reduced if deeply hooked fish are released with the hook left in place. |
As I hope you can see, it discusses the increased mortality of trout when the hook is removed, but only in regard to deeply hooked fish. Perhaps you should re-read it more closely. It discusses the mortality of deeply hooked fish that, as I said, are the only ones in which a responsible catch and release angler should ever leave hooks. A fish that is hooked in the gills or esophagus is one from which the line should be cut at the hook. If a fish is hooked in the lip, the hook should be removed. And for a delicate fish like a trout, it should be removed quickly. Like I said, cutting the line at the hook isn't a choice. It's what you should do only if you have no choice.
And in regard to your comment:
| Quote: | | when i see a trout float by me i'll know that some of you from this site are fishing above me... |
You should hop down off of that high horse before you hurt yourself.  Given the fragility of trout, you're delusional if you think you haven't killed any yourself.
| Quote: | | Rainbow trout that were chased for approximately 10 min had a survival rate of 88%, however this fell to 62% for fish that were subsequently exposed to air for 30 s and survival was only 28% for fish exposed to air for 60 s (Ferguson and Tufts, 1992). |
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SeaDog1
Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Posts: 2629
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Hi Ctfirefighter,
I see where our resident attorney has switched from me to hammer you !
Without a doubt, it's easy to tell who's on a high horse !
Do C&R my way because I'm Mr. Right and everyone else is wrong !
PLEASE ! ....Don't take it to heart -> He can't help it when his mind is locked in lawyer mode and tromping in a bovine field trying to pick his way through a minefield of self-made meadow patties !
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I guess his only other "ALTERNATIVE" would have been to become a politician ! .... LOL 
As I said -> Watch out for the twisting and turning he'll do now to get off the hook !
Again -> Thank you for posting the report -> Well written and informative and worth everyone's time to read
SeaDog1 |
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sbehuniak09
Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 229
Location: Seymour, CT
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: |
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I know Phil needs no help in defending himself, but I have no idea how you guys can keep loudly and IMO ignorantly spewing false and distorted information. Nowhere in anything posted (I read it all) does it say that cutting the line for a fish hooked in the mouth is a proper C&R method. How don't you guys understand that? There can be some debate about what to do if the fish is DEEPLY hooked, but snipping the line is in no way an "alternative" C&R method. That is just silly. Stop being so damn proud SeaDog and admit that what you initially thought was wrong.
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anointed130
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 592
Location: Hartford,Ct\Springfield, MA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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This should now be call the despicable rant tactics of ctft members
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x182dan
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 329
Location: Seymour, CT
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Nickp wrote: | No one cares about trout. Its a put and take fishery. 90% of the stocked fish dont make it till winter.
Ive caught tons of bass with hooks coming out of there ass etc. Id say the skin around the hook rots/pushed out the hook WAY before it rusts out. Then they pass the hook which is why you catch bass with a hook coming out of there ass.
I cant remember the last time I gut hooked a fish, but to each his own. Pulling on a hook lodged in a bass throat is NO bueno, its literally a death sentence and id give the fish less then 50/50 odds- id rather see you cut the line and release the bass where I feel it has better then 75/25 odds. |
I agree 100% for the most part. Those trout are stocked and mostly die off in the summer heat. I am pretty sure the trout cannot reproduce either. I cannot remember the last time I gut hooked a bass. It was probably a few years ago on a wacky worm, lol. Anyhow I feel like the states trout program is a waste if you ask me.
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SeaDog1
Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Posts: 2629
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| sbehuniak09 wrote: | | I know Phil needs no help in defending himself, but I have no idea how you guys can keep loudly and IMO ignorantly spewing false and distorted information. Nowhere in anything posted (I read it all) does it say that cutting the line for a fish hooked in the mouth is a proper C&R method. How don't you guys understand that? There can be some debate about what to do if the fish is DEEPLY hooked, but snipping the line is in no way an "alternative" C&R method. That is just silly. Stop being so damn proud SeaDog and admit that what you initially thought was wrong. |
Hi,
Well please read the following again:
Oh! ... FYI -> We're talking about "deeply hooked fish or gut hooked fish" not mouth hooked fish ! 
1. My post of Catch and Release methods (#2)
2. IGFA Release Recomendations (#3 Bullet)
3. Ontario report submitted by Ctfirefighter (page 12 - #3 Bullet)
In general all 3 say to remove hook if possible and if unable -> To cut line to ... "deeply hooked fish" ... and release as quickly as possible so as not to incur additional injury to fish !
THAT ... Is a recomended "alternitive method" statement as posted by all 3 reports..
If it wasn't -> Then why would they recommend such C&R method and print those statments to cut the line !
This is the very point I and Ctfirefighter have been trying to enlighten all to.
If the fish is mouth hooked -> "Take it out" .... If the fish is deeply hooked and hook can't be removed without additional injury to fish -> "Then cut the line as recomended" !
If anyone has an argument with any of those 3 -> Take it up with those that made the C&R recomendations
Cheech ! ....You guys read but don't comprehened what's written by 3 posted reports on C&R -> Then have the nerve to jump down Ctfirefighter's and My throat as if we're both trying to deliberatly distort the recomendations or making up lies !
As far as the original post made by Coastieyaker -> Where the fish he observed the kid and the father cutting the line to -> Mouth hooked or deeply hooked? (He doesn't say).
If deeply hooked then my statment of cutting the line as a proper alternative method is "VALID" per the 3 C&R reports !
I have only one other thing to say -> Take 3 fingers of this stuff in one gulp ... ... and if you survive this deadly stuff -> call me in the morning ...
SeaDog1 |
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chuckc
Forum Police
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 1440
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| x182dan wrote: | | Nickp wrote: | No one cares about trout. Its a put and take fishery. 90% of the stocked fish dont make it till winter.
Ive caught tons of bass with hooks coming out of there ass etc. Id say the skin around the hook rots/pushed out the hook WAY before it rusts out. Then they pass the hook which is why you catch bass with a hook coming out of there ass.
I cant remember the last time I gut hooked a fish, but to each his own. Pulling on a hook lodged in a bass throat is NO bueno, its literally a death sentence and id give the fish less then 50/50 odds- id rather see you cut the line and release the bass where I feel it has better then 75/25 odds. |
I agree 100% for the most part. Those trout are stocked and mostly die off in the summer heat. I am pretty sure the trout cannot reproduce either. I cannot remember the last time I gut hooked a bass. It was probably a few years ago on a wacky worm, lol. Anyhow I feel like the states trout program is a waste if you ask me. |
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NorthEastFisherman
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| SeaDog1 wrote: | Hi,
No need to get furious whatsoever !
They where properly using the alternative method of C & R, which is to cut the line at the hook.
If the fish is hooked deep in the mouth, it is better to do as they did and recomended, then to cause futher injury to the fish by trying to pry the hook out with pliers.
The hook will rust out in a few days (as long as its not stainless steel) and the fish will mostly not be impaired in any way and continue its normal activities.
SeaDog1 |
I believe Phils angryy because you're saying the kid did the right thing to cut the line at the hook but the fish is most likely going to die either way you do it.
I dont see why you guys are still argueing about this. Ok we now know how to release a caught fish deeply hooked or not, thankyou. Everyone happy now? |
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Stevius86
Joined: 12 Apr 2012
Posts: 165
Location: Ellington
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Who's to say that trout aren't punk rock and are into body modification? If they didn't want a lip piercing (or gut) they wouldn't bite, right? |
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Redneckangler
Joined: 05 May 2012
Posts: 851
Location: Meriden, CT
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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This damn thread might end up longer than the 30 page report, neither of which I really want to read in their entirety.
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Weekly reports from around CT, the LIS and beyond. |
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NorthEastFisherman
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Redneckangler wrote: | | This damn thread might end up longer than the 30 page report, neither of which I really want to read in their entirety. |
Theres a 50 something page report on this other website im on. Not an arguement tho. |
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